Should we just accept devaluations and paying for them as a way of life?

[VasukiVasuki is verified member.]

So tomorrow the banks can deny withdrawal of my deposits because there are wars and economic crises and we are a third world country with low GDP per capita???? Because they are not there for charity, they get to keep my deposits? Because as I see it, the cc fee I paid was a price for services that were not delivered to me, so I should either get a refund or get the promised services. If you have got a prepaid recharge of your phone from Airtel, will you accept if they say tomorrow that they will stop their services to you despite you having the balance because they are not here for charity but to do business?? Does that make any sense? Can they say that they will not provide services because of the GDP per capita or war or economic crises? Maybe I am dumb, but I cannot make any sense of these logic and the defence given for the banks. If you do not pay the EMI on your loan to the bank, because of global scenario, economy, recession, layoff, gdp - will the bank agree? Are you doing charity by repaying the loan to the bank? You are keeping a promise you made to the bank, and that is what it is about.

You can't go that naive

By law they need to inform you 1 month earlier that's it
Credit card is banks property,rewards are at their perail

As for cash it's our

For axis they fucked big time

Hdfc & sbi have good surplus so they sustained.

By war I meant less funding .
So resources are there for something else not credit card now

Also start-ups aren't getting funding so less Collab

 

[TheGuyTheGuy is verified member.]

@Vasuki I think this is just ideal scenario type of write up. What it should be vs what it is.

 

[VasukiVasuki is verified member.]

@Vasuki I think this is just ideal scenario type of write up. What it should be vs what it is.

What it should be is a class action suit against axis Bank but but but
Mylords are sleeping over their Jnu friends fights & entangled in fight with gov over who's the social protector


Have you ever seen fair fight at court , lower court are farse as judge don't know anything about cards

For rbi ombudsman it's statutory body

 

[abhishek0882]

You can't go that naive

By law they need to inform you 1 month earlier that's it
Credit card is banks property,rewards are at their perail

As for cash it's our

For axis they fucked big time

Hdfc & sbi have good surplus so they sustained.

By war I meant less funding .
So resources are there for something else not credit card now

Also start-ups aren't getting funding so less Collab

When an individual consumer asks for what's right for them, it is naive. When a bank or corporation does what suits them, it's smart business.

What I am saying is very simple, or so I think. Don't continue with the benefits if they are not sustainable, but to those you made the promise, and the period for which you made the promise, you either keep that promise or refund for the period it was unused. Even that may cause inconvenience to the customer but that is better than the scam that is now happening just because teh bank is a more influential entity than the consumers.

 

[abhishek0882]

What it should be is a class action suit against axis Bank but but but
Mylords are sleeping over their Jnu friends fights & entangled in fight with gov over who's the social protector


Have you ever seen fair fight at court , lower court are farse as judge don't know anything about cards

For rbi ombudsman it's statutory body

Well, to that what can I say, that ways there is no solution to any problem ever

 

[TheGuyTheGuy is verified member.]

For rbi ombudsman it's statutory body

RBI Ombudsman maybe statutory but RBI is Regulator, Central Bank, Monetary Authority, Deposit Insurer and as you said Ombudsman may have Quasi Judicial powers.

And in western nations these functions are separate. So, RBI can make laws being Regulator, no Judge needed. And if you do case on Bank, I don't think they start from District Courts but High Courts.

Similarly SEBI issues can only be challenged in Supreme Court as they already have SAT, equal to High Court.

 

[VasukiVasuki is verified member.]

When an individual consumer asks for what's right for them, it is naive. When a bank or corporation does what suits them, it's smart business.

What I am saying is very simple, or so I think. Don't continue with the benefits if they are not sustainable, but to those you made the promise, and the period for which you made the promise, you either keep that promise or refund for the period it was unused. Even that may cause inconvenience to the customer but that is better than the scam that is now happening just because teh bank is a more influential entity than the consumers.

What you saying is right with pov of customer
But
Mylords are uneducated in banking regards
Ombudsman is clumsy
Rbi is being runned by Du history Hons grad ( better than economist though)


It's all comes down to
Banks thinks customer are dumb and we can play by the rules which they do

And most case scenario, alumnus lead mba graduate fucktards who works as product manager in banks are bootlicker of boss

If you know growth of hdfc it is because of its visionary MD who was longest running


Axis IoCl was best card for fuel it's devauled so much I don't want to see that card face
All axis rupay card is capped by 250 Edge points for all UPI transaction
Ealier it was unlimited

So we share the same pain

 

[abhishek0882]

You've valid concern for paid cards, assuming you can't meet the fee waiver criteria.
There has been shared stories on this forum that people have compained about devaluation to nodal officers and got partial/full refund of the fees, and then they close the card. Plz try that route.

I personally don't believe in this strategy of taking paid cards and having to compute rewards to recover fees. Either I take LTF cards or cards where my usual spends can cross the waiver criteria.
(People who take paid cards without having expenses to meet fee waiver will be hit hardest from devaluations I believe.)

Okay, took me some time to get to this post to reply. Very valid points here. About the fee waiver criteria and LTF cards.

I take paid cards for the features and services they offer and I am willing to pay that fees for the services. No problems there. The problem is when they charge the fee and withdraw the services mid period without honoring the promise they made when they offered the services for the price.

While many cards have a fee waiver spend criteria, many do not, and for many of the cards, the spend criteria does not make sense (25L for Magnus in its current offering). And if I choose to pay the fee and spread my expenses over a number of cards, that's my choice, right? I am okay with paying the fees and getting the services I was promised. If I hit the waiver criteria based on my spending pattern, then great, if not, does that absolve the bank of it's promise. Even if I make the spends to get the fee waiver, the waiver still does not absolve the bank of the promise it made, because I made the payment by way of spends instead of the fee. So either ways, the bank is not absolved of the responsibility to keep its promise.

And not everyone who tried the nodal officer route got the fee refunded or waived - speaking from my personal experience, hence the bitterness you might say.

Unless ofcourse the arguement is that the banks need to make profits and for that purpose whatever, WHATEVER they do is justified, customers be damned. If that's the logic, then of course there's no further arguement to be made.

 

[abhishek0882]

RBI Ombudsman maybe statutory but RBI is Regulator, Central Bank, Monetary Authority, Deposit Insurer and as you said Ombudsman may have Quasi Judicial powers.

And in western nations these functions are separate. So, RBI can make laws being Regulator, no Judge needed. And if you do case on Bank, I don't think they start from District Courts but High Courts.

Similarly SEBI issues can only be challenged in Supreme Court as they already have SAT, equal to High Court.

On point absolutely

 

[abhishek0882]

What you saying is right with pov of customer
But
Mylords are uneducated in banking regards
Ombudsman is clumsy
Rbi is being runned by Du history Hons grad ( better than economist though)


It's all comes down to
Banks thinks customer are dumb and we can play by the rules which they do

And most case scenario, alumnus lead mba graduate fucktards who works as product manager in banks are bootlicker of boss

If you know growth of hdfc it is because of its visionary MD who was longest running


Axis IoCl was best card for fuel it's devauled so much I don't want to see that card face
All axis rupay card is capped by 250 Edge points for all UPI transaction
Ealier it was unlimited

So we share the same pain

I do not agree to all your views, as far as I could understand them, but the central point you are trying to make I guess is that the system is flawed, and in the specific case I raised, I agree to that. Yes the system is flawed where banks are taking undue advantage of the customers. Until RBI takes some measures, tehy are not going to do anything.

Now whether RBI will act or not, why or why not they will act or not and the politics and the competence, i am not in judgement of that. I am just saying that this credit card devaluation scam of banks is wrong and is there anything that we as consumers can do about it rather than sitting back and taking it lying down, not even make any effort.

 

[VISHESH_BANSAL]

My issue is, when we sign up for any subscription (which effectively credit cards are), we look at what we are getting against the subscription price and based on that we decide whether to purchase the subscription or not. Now, if we have paid an annual fee upfront for a set of features and services, we expect to receive those services for the year/subscription period.

You are thinking Joining Fee is the price for subscription to Card Features for a year ?🤣

Then Why it is named as Joining Fee by Bamks instead of subscription fee or Feature Activation Charges or Product Feature Fee ?🤣

Obviously there is difference between them that is why Banks Call it Joining Fee/Annual Fee🤣

Let me give you an example what is the called a True subscription Model w.r.t Credit Cards

Do you know about AU LIT Card ?

AU LIT Card is the True example of subscription based Credit Card Model.

In AU LIT we have flexibility to choose cafeaturesres, we pay for Subscription Charges to activate Cashback features for next 3months.

And Recently AU LIT increased the Price of a Particular Feature by Rs.100 for fresh Subscription but If I continue with Auto Renewal, I will continue to get the same Feature at old Price.

This what we call a true Subscription Model.

Another Example for Subscription based Credit Card is ICICI MINE CREDIT CARD.

AU and ICICI is taking Consent to Charge XXX INR and in return they will provide XYZ features for XYZ months.

AU and ICICI is not charging the Fee by Calling it Joining or Annual fee, they clearly indicating you will get this set of features for this period for this Price.

While other Banks are Charging a Joining Fee or in Layman language you can call it entry Fee.

If anyone want to hold a Particular card you have to give an entry fee of XYZ and after the entry enjoy the Card features associated with that Card.
One has paid entry fee to avail the Feature associated with the Card, and such features are subject to change informed at the Joining itself in the MITC

So one already know in advance one have atleast one mone month to avail the Features which are prevailing at the time of Joining in case features are changed next day of Joining
So one should take a call at the time of entry itself if it is worth it to join or not. Why making Fuss about it ?

 

[HumorSimpson]

@D₹V fights are happening here.

 

[S U D O]

So tomorrow the banks can deny withdrawal of my deposits

Something like this happened last year somewhere in USA or South America as far as i can remember.

 

[Saiv]

In My Opinion Banks won’t come back to their senses anytime soon(the way customer wants). Coz Banks Got a Golden Duck Called “Upi on Rupay CC”. Most of the tier 2,3 cities users small town users won’t care about rewards, all they care is the liberty of spending money via CC/Credit line to grassroots level. Almost all middle class people are used to living from paycheque to paycheque & paying emi’s & interest on CC’s(this is the sole reason for the rise of BNPL ESPECIALLY SLICE in South India). One way or another, Middle class needs money to spend, & banks got a sweet promise of 45-55days interest free period Upi acceptance as well. Banks got nothing to loose, govt pays them incentives for the MDR, they’re loosing on Rupay/upi Network & if middle class fails to pay the dues, they can milk interest. So a win win situation for Banks.
So They don’t see any Need to give crazy features like before to lure customers. Cherry on the top is: there will be no abusers of Card features

So Hell of a time for banks to do business in India

 

[HumorSimpson]

In My Opinion Banks won’t come back to their senses anytime soon(the way customer wants). Coz Banks Got a Golden Duck Called “Upi on Rupay CC”. Most of the tier 2,3 cities users small town users won’t care about rewards, all they care is the liberty of spending money via CC/Credit line to grassroots level. Almost all middle class people are used to living from paycheque to paycheque & paying emi’s & interest on CC’s(this is the sole reason for the rise of BNPL ESPECIALLY SLICE in South India). One way or another, Middle class needs money to spend, & banks got a sweet promise of 45-55days interest free period Upi acceptance as well. Banks got nothing to loose, govt pays them incentives for the MDR, they’re loosing on Rupay/upi Network & if middle class fails to pay the dues, they can milk interest. So a win win situation for Banks.
They Need not to give crazy features like before to lure customers. Cherry on the top is: there will be no abusers of Card features
So Hell of a time for banks to do business in India

Your opinions on this @Abhishek012 ?

 

[card-shard]

So tomorrow the banks can deny withdrawal of my deposits because there are wars and economic crises and we are a third world country with low GDP per capita????

Just factually pointing one thing here:
Going by the law in the constitution of India, banks only guarantee returning a max of 5L across all your deposits, in case of bank failure for any reason.
In rare possibility, you may not get your deposits above 5L from the bank.

 

[Abhishek012]

Your opinions on this @Abhishek012 ?

Just few days ago, i told this thing to @SSV
Card devaluation is happening because people are spending more these days. The fee for some MDR categories is only 1% like Utility etc. People didn't even talk about this, I said it in one comment and then I saw @TechnoFino create/wrote a video/article on it and told everyone.

One important thing people do not tell about (or should I say so called credit card influencers) is server cost, credit card software upgrade, maintenance and security -

Look, if the bank's credit card spend starts increasing then the bank has to pay more for the server cost.
Then due to the user base increased, its server, maintenance and security costs start increasing (But there is not that much increase in profit).

last thing, inflation and customers are getting smarter -

if your card user base and card spend don't increase but inflation will occur after few years because the MDR and EMI fees you earn are not enough to cover your server and maintenance costs.

Nowadays, People who have credit cards are taking advantage of the 10% discount offer by shopping with their cards with other non-card users. Due to which banks will have to spend more in their promotion.

One more thing to remember, the banks first devaluing basic and premium cards, then super premium cards and lastly ultra premium cards (Since, most of the RuPay cards are currently basic and premium cards, People think that RuPay card is the most devalued).

But in reality banks devalue cards according to card categories and not by card networks.

Update - One more thing i need to add - Banks will still launch cards with good rewards for HNI customers, Axis Primus CC is the best example of this.

Many of @asahi points are correct except MDR is also applicable to RuPay credit cards on UPI. The govt does not provide any subsidy for RuPay CC UPI. Another thing, people in tier 2/3 cities do the same with Visa/Mastercard as well.

RuPay CC UPI actually charge approx upto 2% MDR for bank transfer (If small merchant QR codes) but Visa/mastercard (Including card otp based RuPay transaction) credit card charge only 1% MDR for bank transfer via Snapay, Bharatnxt, Easemydeal etc apps or Superpe like app give you 5% cashback on SBI Cashback card and only 1.65% charges.

The issue is not just with RuPay Credit Card UPI; banks are also incurring significant losses with Visa/Mastercard. You could even say the losses are higher. At least with RuPay Credit Card UPI's higher MDR, banks are making slightly more profit.

 

[Saiv]

Just few days ago, i told this thing to @SSV
Card devaluation is happening because people are spending more these days. The fee for some MDR categories is only 1% like Utility etc. People didn't even talk about this, I said it in one comment and then I saw @TechnoFino create/wrote a video/article on it and told everyone.

One important thing people do not tell about (or should I say so called credit card influencers) is server cost, credit card software upgrade, maintenance and security -

Look, if the bank's credit card spend starts increasing then the bank has to pay more for the server cost.
Then due to the user base increased, its server, maintenance and security costs start increasing (But there is not that much increase in profit).

last thing, inflation and customers are getting smarter -

if your card user base and card spend don't increase but inflation will occur after few years because the MDR and EMI fees you earn are not enough to cover your server and maintenance costs.

Nowadays, People who have credit cards are taking advantage of the 10% discount offer by shopping with their cards with other non-card users. Due to which banks will have to spend more in their promotion.

One more thing to remember, the banks first devaluing basic and premium cards, then super premium cards and lastly ultra premium cards (Since, most of the RuPay cards are currently basic and premium cards, People think that RuPay card is the most devalued).

But in reality banks devalue cards according to card categories and not by card networks.

Update - One more thing i need to add - Banks will still launch cards with good rewards for HNI customers, Axis Primus CC is the best example of this.

Many of @asahi points are correct except MDR is also applicable to RuPay credit cards on UPI. The government does not provide any subsidy for RuPay CC UPI. Another thing, people in tier 2/3 cities do the same with Visa/Mastercard as well.

RuPay CC UPI actually charge approx upto 2% MDR for bank transfer (If small merchant QR codes) but Visa/mastercard (Including card otp based RuPay transaction) credit card charge only 1% MDR for bank transfer via Snapay, Bharatnxt, Easemydeal etc apps or Superpe link app give you 5% cashabck on SBI Cashback card and only 1.65% charges.

The issue is not just with RuPay Credit Card UPI; banks are also incurring significant losses with Visa/Mastercard. You could even say the losses are higher. At least with RuPay Credit Card UPI's higher MDR, banks are making slightly more profit.

The losses they’re making being covered in form of interests & finally ending up in profits. so many out there, who’re unnecessarily spending lakhs of rupees via credit cards in form of emi’s & lakhs of people out there who are constantly stuck in this credit rotation crunch. Late payments fees, processing fees over limit fees, loan on cc, huge rates on cc cash withdrawals. Most people are debt trapped. I’ve seen guys with 50 lakhs debt(bnpl quick loans credit cards etc) below 35 aged people. Last April Quarter Sbi Cards Seen a Net Profit of 11% YOY & total revenue increased by 14%. When it comes to Axis its their fault they over estimated Citi banks worth. Almost all other credit card companies are in profits. I think Banks Main concern is getting a less profit margin(loss isn’t a option for them coz they’ve to please so many big investors/stakeholders). That’s why i think they do these feature cuts.

 

[amitagl27]

In my view devaluation of credit cards will continue and getting a limit enhancement is going to be more difficult in coming years.
These two are product of various circulars from RBI and market related factors. Some of them I've outlined below:

• Due to higher risk weightage announced by RBI (125% from 100% for NBFC & 150% from 100% for banks), the credit limits have been either reduced or new cards are issued with lesser credit limit.
• This also impacts the offers and promotions since banks have reduced Profitability due to keeping aside higher amount they lend to customer. They can no longer encourage consumers to spend more, which increases the risk of default. Basically, banks want prudent credit card consumers and not the ones who goes broke.
• Apart from this, credit card adoption could grow at almost thrice the speed in the next four years, credit card companies no longer find a need to attract & retain customers with glossy deals. The pie is big, and every bank is going to be benefitted.
• It's kind of race to the bottom, in a world when lending is becoming difficult, banks are trying to outdo each other by offering lower credit limit and fewer benefits and still gaining customers. (look at Axis bank, even after huge devaluations since last 1 year, their credit card portfolio has increase with almost the same month on month basis)
• The primary sources of revenue for banks are interest on revolving balances and interchange fees, which automatically goes up as the adoption increases. Thus, no need to give extra perks for the credit cards.

Final note: Since India is facing a Credit Card Pandemic according to some experts, I urge everyone here in this forum to use your cards prudently and spend responsibly. Festival seasons is already here and no better time to be more prudent in our spending.

 

[gunik1123]

I think with the recent trend of credit card devaluations and almost all banks falling over each other to devalue their cards, we as consumers have just accepted it as a reality and move on, moving from one card to another.
My issue is, when we sign up for any subscription (which effectively credit cards are), we look at what we are getting against the subscription price and based on that we decide whether to purchase the subscription or not. Now, if we have paid an annual fee upfront for a set of features and services, we expect to receive those services for the year/subscription period. Minor changes are acceptable but if the key features are taken away, what is the point of what we paid for. I understand that the TnC already mention that the bank may change the offerings at any time and we all have agreed to those terms, but is that acceptable? One solution could be that a bank should be able to effect changes in a card only at renewal, not in between. So the changes will not come into effect together for all cardholders, but in a phased manner as per the renewals. Another option could be, if major changes are made in the offerings, is it not fair that we should have the option to cancel the card and be entitled to get a refund of the fee on a pro rata basis, for the period used? Or have a monthly fee so that as soon as changes are applicable, if the card is cancelled there is minimum loss. Banks are now launching cards with a lot of features, getting people in and taking the upfront fees and within a few months devalue it, seems like it has become a scam.
I know I may receive some sarcastic responses and people making fun saying thats how things function and since we have agreed to the TnC, nothing can be done about it. Well we sign a lot of TnC but if they are not in line with natural justice, the authorities/regulators do intervene frequently. This is classic case where I believe that consumers are being put at a disadvantage. As a popular forum with a decent following, can this not be taken up to atleast bring to the attention of RBI? Can even an attempt not be made to stop this BS by the banks. How long should paying customers promised of services be at the mercy of the banks and leave all work and keep track of what was applicable on a card one day to the next and chase after new cards that suit us, and then the next card after this particular one gets devalues and lose the fee paid in the process.
Sorry for the rant, but this has been going on for way too long now and is very frustrating.

Can someone please explain that what is meant by highlighted Lines of Master circular issued by RBI in 2022:

" Card-issuers shall not unilaterally upgrade credit cards and enhance credit limits. Explicit consent of the cardholder shall invariably be taken whenever there is/are any change/s in terms and conditions. In case of reduction in the credit limit, the card-issuer shall intimate the same to the cardholder."

Does highlighted text means that consent of the cardholder must be taken even if there is change in feature offered by Credit card?