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Axis Bank May Issue Legal Notices for Unsettled Negative Reward Points Balances

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I'm not a lawyer so can't comment on the rest but for below point I don't think it will have any impact on the user.

I can use my credit card to take money into my bank account. I can get a question from ITD for mismatch if the amount is large but this is not something that will lead to a Income Tax demand.

lucifer69 said:
They won't hesitate to bring IT into the picture where even your ITRs will not match the spends required to generate those same and by the time you'll already be under the umbrella of fraud.
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chasni said:
I'm not a lawyer so can't comment on the rest but for below point I don't think it will have any impact on the user.

I can use my credit card to take money into my bank account. I can get a question from ITD for mismatch if the amount is large but this is not something that will lead to a Income Tax demand.
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You are right but for tge wrong reasons.

For the sake of argument imagine you take out 10L from your credit card and deposit it into your bank account. You can explain the 10L in your bank account as a short term debt end of discussion. Now imagine you got 10L in your account or you made a 10L purchase and it didn't come from debt, or income or salary or business txn or gift. In USA income from theft/fraud/scam is taxable and this law is very famous too as it helps small business owners/individuals/enterprises in recovery.

However, In india the entire Income Tax dept is a joke and I don't think there is a clear law. That's why I said, if it goes to court we will get a landmark judgement to set a precedent for future cases.
 
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chasni said:
I'm not a lawyer so can't comment on the rest but for below point I don't think it will have any impact on the user.

I can use my credit card to take money into my bank account. I can get a question from ITD for mismatch if the amount is large but this is not something that will lead to a Income Tax demand.
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There's a difference between 10 thousand and 40-50lakhs. They'll ask for proof as there'll mismatch and from where one will get proof? That I used rewards points? Fair enough. Now, how did you generate those?

by spends, right? Now, they'll ask to prove and you've to present statements from Axis to show the same. That's where I assumed the real deal will be.

If I can think like that, surely Axis can as well and they might incept the same nah? Again, I took it from my perspective if I would've been the jury. Thing is we don't have clear laws so a good judge can ruin you over a basic thing.
 
dvader said:
However, In india the entire Income Tax dept is a joke and I don't think there is a clear law. That's why I said, if it goes to court we will get a landmark judgement to set a precedent for future cases.
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The Income Tax Act already has a provision. Any receipt above Rs.50,000 other than from direct relatives without "adequate consideration" is treated as a "gift" and is taxed as income.
 
lucifer69 said:
Just discussed with my cousin who worked under Solicitor general few years back in SC and comes from a family of lawyers.

Short Answer: You're liable to pay and Axis holds the ball legally and ruin you. You can raise a case but he prepared for harrasment and sure shot defeat.
------------------

Now, coming back to it without even the updated MITC. They can go for claim using the laws for fraud [ there is not timeline for recovering fraud money. You can basically recover even after 60 years ].

But, Axis played more safe by updating the MITC by indirectly giving you an idea of what's about to come but opportunity to be prepared. Afterwards, now they're giving you time and opportunity to pay back. "Fraud" has an extremely broad coverage and the actual outcome will be decided in court. Axis is famous for going after these exploiters in past. They've team of lawyers and a huge capital to infuse into it and taking the cases. MITC/NOC/Agreements/Contracts need not be broken to commit fraud. They will not go for small fishes [ will present a bad image as there are genuine users as well who had cancelled or refunded product ] but the main thing is it will give them a upper hand in court that they are going for big fishes, it will be easy for them prove the big fishes as outright fraud and will have a soft backing as they are letting go a major chunk of users [ 100rs of amount will still be counted as a case ] which they'll let go but can present as part of record.

my additional statement to him: Another big thing which will be used as persons having points worth lakhs but not enough spend statements to back those up [which is obvious] in that case, the onus will be on you to prove the same which is impossible again. Now, as you've spend let's say 70Lakh while having spend of 10Lakhs. Those 60L can be termed as fraud money lent. They won't hesitate to bring IT into the picture where even your ITRs will not match the spends required to generate those same and by the time you'll already be under the umbrella of fraud.

Answer was: Bold of you to assume, someone will be able to withstand for that long. Considering the legal team of Axis, it'll be shut so soon as they have been preparing for this for a long time [ he mentioned after mitc update]

Lastly, I have asked for personal thought if he is the judge: Fraud detected, abuse of system, considering laws it'll be worse than paying the amount. Better ask for time.


This all is personal conversation and have just thought to share.
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This is what I've been saying. Even pointed the laws and how they'll easily win.

But some people think since it's bank's fault and they didn't mention "don't commit fraud or we will recover the points" in MITC they're not liable. Also, monetary value of points in null so Axis can't do anything even though its costing them crores. It's laughable the la la land some people live in.

The only thing is till what extent will Axis go. Let's see.
 
dvader said:
You are right but for tge wrong reasons.

For the sake of argument imagine you take out 10L from your credit card and deposit it into your bank account. You can explain the 10L in your bank account as a short term debt end of discussion. Now imagine you got 10L in your account or you made a 10L purchase and it didn't come from debt, or income or salary or business txn or gift. In USA income from theft/fraud/scam is taxable and this law is very famous too as it helps small business owners/individuals/enterprises in recovery.

However, In india the entire Income Tax dept is a joke and I don't think there is a clear law. That's why I said, if it goes to court we will get a landmark judgement to set a precedent for future cases.
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I'm not sure why you're inventing things that didn't happen. There was no deposit of money in anyone's account.

I am assuming all those people transferred the points to FFP which has no monetary value. So, what are you talking about?
 
Dobbiee said:
Its not possible to get cash recovered from public if your system first allows to flaunt that.
When bank employees do that they are punished in legal investigations. There are lot of such cases.
When public does that, then also the employees get punished for letting that happen.

In all cases Axis would take the burn.

Also, i think bank is now under legal scrutiny and thats why its sending such useless emails. It would only create terror among people and even good people would not like to bank with Axis.

Should keep a watch Axis market share price.
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You are absolutely wrong in it. I have quoted but I'll put in simple words for you. I personally a guy mistakenly crediting lakhs of rupees in multiple accounts from a bank. They recovered and in cases where used, they sent notice and recovered. Employee is still in bank and he only got put in a meeting where he said, "mistake happened and was corrected.
 
chasni said:
I'm not sure why you're inventing things that didn't happen. There was no deposit of money in anyone's account.

I am assuming all those people transferred the points to FFP which has no monetary value. So, what are you talking about?
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Did you read the word imagine at the start of the sentence? Almost always the the thing that follows after the word imagine is invented for the sake of argument.

Now legally I am quoting the HC lawyer,

The transaction may or may not have any monetary value from customer's point of view. But it had a value in Axis' books and that's why the fraud. You are too involved with credit cards, points, rewards, redemption. The Axis will go on the grounds of fraud.

I hope that Axis doesn't take small players to court along with the big fraudsters. A person who got 1-2L shouldn't get his life ruined. Axis should settle with them for a reasonable amount of money say 30% or above. They can do whatever they want with the big guys.
 
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dvader said:
Did you read the word imagine at the start of the sentence? Almost always the the thing that follows after the word imagine is invented for the sake of argument.

Now legally I am quoting the HC lawyer,

And the transaction may or may not have any monetary value from customer's point of view. But it had a value in Axis' books and that's why the fraud. You are too involved with credit cards, points, rewards, redemption. The Axis will go on the grounds of fraud.
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Man, I have just been through whole thread and figured out there are people who accept the thing but just want bank to take responsibility as well.

But there are other set of people who are adamant that they are saint and axis is the only wrong here. This group don't want to hear any reason at all unlike the other and they're not gonna listen.


Surprisingly, I'm genuinely disappointed with the OP. Quoting his word, "I will challenge Axis to the court if they come" I don't know how this argument is coming at first place if you haven't exploited the big at all which he stated in the post. Seems hypocritical stance. But, being brutually honest if axis will really go for a case, you hold no ground and there will be worse things.
 
dvader said:
Did you read the word imagine at the start of the sentence? Almost always the the thing that follows after the word imagine is invented for the sake of argument.

Now legally I am quoting the HC lawyer,

The transaction may or may not have any monetary value from customer's point of view. But it had a value in Axis' books and that's why the fraud. You are too involved with credit cards, points, rewards, redemption. The Axis will go on the grounds of fraud.

I hope that Axis doesn't take small players to court along with the big fraudsters. A person who got 1-2L shouldn't get his life ruined. Axis should settle with them for a reasonable amount of money say 30% or above. They can do whatever they want with the big guys.
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Sir, I never commented on your post about Axis and fraud. I only commented about your comment about Axis involving ITD. I stil don't understand how can Axis involved ITD here given it was a credit card transaction which was refunded.

But anyways, may be I'm not smart as you or don't have connections with HC/SC. Anyways, thanks for the enlightening post.
 
chasni said:
Sir, I never commented on your post about Axis and fraud. I only commented about your comment about Axis involving ITD. I stil don't understand how can Axis involved ITD here given it was a credit card transaction which was refunded.

But anyways, may be I'm not smart as you or don't have connections with HC/SC. Anyways, thanks for the enlightening post.
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No you are right, but your reasoning is faulty. They can not involve ITD, not because the txn were refunded forget all that.

Say Axis goes with fraud, so the money or vaule tge customers got is money/value from theft. There is no clear laws in India about taxing income from theft, is that a gift? No axis wont make that claim, is that income? No then WTF is that. If It's fraud then Axis won't be able to bring ITD in the picture. And that my friend is why this case would be unique and that's why I have been saying, we will get a landmark judgement if this goes to court.

Note: The above paragraph is not entirely the Lawyer's speculation, It's mostly me.

His words were: I don't think ITD will be involved, it's an easy Fraud case.
 
dvader said:
No you are right, but your reasoning is faulty. They can not involve ITD, not because the txn were refunded forget all that.

Say Axis goes with fraud, so the money or vaule tge customers got is money/value from theft. There is no clear laws in India about taxing income from theft, is that a gift? No axis wont make that claim, is that income? No then WTF is that. If It's fraud then Axis won't be able to bring ITD in the picture. And that my friend is why this case would be unique and that's why I have been saying, we will get a landmark judgement if this goes to court.

Note: The above paragraph is not entirely the Lawyer's speculation, It's mostly me.

His words were: I don't think ITD will be involved, it's an easy Fraud case.
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Sir, as far as I know ITD doesn't care for fraud. That is the responsibility of EOW or FIU. Someone please comment if I'm wrong.
 
chasni said:
Sir, as far as I know ITD doesn't care for fraud. That is the responsibility of EOW or FIU. Someone please comment if I'm wrong.
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yeah you are on point If Axis claims fraud, ITD is (or should be) out of picture. (at least that's what I have till now), they might still use ITD as intimidation to recover money from lesser guys.
 
lucifer69 said:
You are absolutely wrong in it. I have quoted but I'll put in simple words for you. I personally a guy mistakenly crediting lakhs of rupees in multiple accounts from a bank. They recovered and in cases where used, they sent notice and recovered. Employee is still in bank and he only got put in a meeting where he said, "mistake happened and was corrected.
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The difference here is ‘public’.
Crediting money into few accounts and leaving the vault open for public to loot are 2 different things.
 
dvader said:
No you are right, but your reasoning is faulty. They can not involve ITD, not because the txn were refunded forget all that.

Say Axis goes with fraud, so the money or vaule tge customers got is money/value from theft. There is no clear laws in India about taxing income from theft, is that a gift? No axis wont make that claim, is that income? No then WTF is that. If It's fraud then Axis won't be able to bring ITD in the picture. And that my friend is why this case would be unique and that's why I have been saying, we will get a landmark judgement if this goes to court.

Note: The above paragraph is not entirely the Lawyer's speculation, It's mostly me.

His words were: I don't think ITD will be involved, it's an easy Fraud case.
Click to expand...
The Income Tax Act does not differentiate between "legal" and "illegal" income. There are many judgements and ITAT rulings on this. As long as there is income, they claim tax on that. And there are already clear provisions in the IT Act to treat any cash/cash equivalent received without "adequate consideration" , beyond total 50K p.a., as "gift". So it does not matter what Axis claims.
Acting on theft is the job of police, CBI, EOW, ED etc. But demanding tax on that is what IT Dept is working for.
 
panchabhut said:
The Income Tax Act does not differentiate between "legal" and "illegal" income. There are many judgements and ITAT rulings on this. As long as there is income, they claim tax on that. And there are already clear provisions in the IT Act to treat any cash/cash equivalent received without "adequate consideration" , beyond total 50K p.a., as "gift". So it does not matter what Axis claims.
Acting on theft is the job of police, CBI, EOW, ED etc. But demanding tax on that is what IT Dept is working for.
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Well that's good then, As I said, that was mostly me. The lawyer only mentioned that Axis won't involve ITD.
 
Looks like some people have taken advice from lawyers, judges, staff of banks etc.
Have they received any legal notice?

Bhai legal notice aaya ho to share karo.
Ya phir sirf apna haath khada do (by like). Jisko nai aaya ho woh apna haath neeche rakhe pls (by dislike).
 
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